MR. EDGERS: Good afternoon, everyone. I am Geoff Edgers, the national arts reporter at The Washington Post, and we are so lucky today to have acclaimed artist and now best-selling author Sinéad O’Connor with us, coming to us from Ireland, and she is the author of the new book, “Rememberings,” which chronicles her decades as an artist and her roots and her start.
And, Sinéad, we're so glad to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for being with The Washington Post.
MS. O'CONNOR: Thank you. No, not at all. Jesus, it's lovely. Thank you.
MR. EDGERS: So, Sinéad, as you know, a few days ago, you retired, and then you unretired. And you said, "I lied when I said I'm past my peak," which I've seen you perform recently, and I agree with you.
MS. O'CONNOR: You know what? For 30 years or at least since the Pope business, every time I go to work to sell a record or a book or whatever or a show, all anybody wants to know about is, you know, upsetting things, you know, very upsetting things, and on the grounds that I suffer from mental health conditions as a result of the violence I went through growing up, I get treated like shit. And I have to kind of wade through oceans of prejudice and stigma, you know, every day to make a living, and that's depressing, you know.
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There was a couple of interviews where I had also--the publishers had several times requested that journalists would be sensitive not to, perhaps, retraumatize me by digging into the abuse issue much, and some of them ignored that. It was all a bit triggering. I didn't expect talking about the book would bring--it was actually a huge catharsis, you know, which is a good thing.
But, anyway, there was a particularly hurtful interview about a week ago, and for all the years that I got treated like this, several times I've retired, and it's actually because--you know what? It's so demeaning having to, you know, answer questions about whether you're sane or not or being invalidated on the grounds that you suffer from the symptoms of trauma. You know what I'm saying?
MR. EDGERS: Yeah. I mean, one of your heroes--two of your heroes--Van Morrison is one of them and Bob Dylan--they found a solution to this which is they never do interviews, right? They do like one interview every--
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MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. Well, that was happening. After this book promo is done, everybody has promised me that I don't have to do any promo for the album coming out or anything like that because terribly triggering is weird. It always has been over the years because even watching, for example, the beautiful thing that you just made about my history and the things, you know, it's lovely, but it's triggering. It's weird, you know. It's actually really good thing. It's a blessing in disguise because all of my life when in recovery, the therapists and the doctors, et cetera, they always say--and that this is common in the abuse of others--that I could tell you about something dreadful that happened, but I wouldn't have any feelings about it, you know. But, of course, you're disassociated.
Part of recovery is associating, and that's what's happened as a result of talking about the book. So that's a good thing, but it means I'm terribly fragile.
There was a particularly nasty bitch--God forgive me--who was just demeaning me, saying dreadful insults about mental health and all that stuff, and--
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MR. EDGERS: You know, I just want to--I hope--I'm sorry.
MS. O'CONNOR: Every time this happens over the years, I've retired every time somebody has just hurt me so bad that I don't want to fucking be in the business, you know, but then a couple of days later, I was like, "You know what? Fuck that bitch." So, I got revenge by writing a letter about it on my webpage. Once I got revenge, I'm cool, you know?
So, yeah, I'm not a bitch. That's the thing. So, yeah--I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean with respect, you know, but, you know, I got terribly hurt, and I didn't want to, you know--it's a hurtful thing being in the music business and constantly being defined by as if you're mad, mental health, and as if being mad is bad and/or makes you somehow dangerous and you get treated like a Russian dancing bear. They're kind of mocking and invalidating and putting you down, you know, that kind of shit. That made me want to run away a million times over the years, you know, but--so it's a hard job.
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You know, you're wading through walls--and this is true for everybody listening and, of course, who suffers from mental health issues, but to go to work or to live your day, you have to wade through walls of fucking prejudice, which even comes into your own fucking head, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Let me ask you. I know you're a consumer of news, and you follow all current events. I'm sure you've watched what's happened with--
MS. O'CONNOR: Only in America. I don't follow current events even in my own country, God forgive me. All I do is I watch American CNN, 24 hours a day.
MR. EDGERS: So, let me ask you. When it comes to trauma and how people deal with it, I mean, you've seen what's happened with Naomi Osaka--
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah.
MR. EDGERS: --the great tennis player who--
MS. O'CONNOR: Who gets--actually, she's like--I mean, and I love her. You know, I respect her, of course, so I'm not saying anything about her, but like the way the media are dealing with her is so respectful. But the deal with me, they treat me like a dancing bear. It's horrible to live that way, you know?
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MR. EDGERS: What can we do better as the media to--I mean, you've done it beautifully in this book, the idea of sort of helping destigmatize mental illness and make people feel more powerful about speaking out. What can the media do better? How do they improve that? Because there is obviously that Dr. Phil quotient out there that just want to get clicks and want to get attention.
MS. O'CONNOR: Well, I suppose it's different for everyone. I'm not sure. Are you asking me what do I think is the trick? Like, I guess one thing obviously is media could stop portraying in movies or TV or anything and even the news where there's a mass shooting. Everybody says, oh, the person is mentally ill. That's bollocks. There's a difference between evil and mental illness. So that labels us. We're stigmatized. People are afraid going to work.
It's basically--it's like being a person who has two broken legs, but everybody expects you to walk normal, and if you don't walk normal, you might lose your job. You might lose your girlfriend or your kids, you know, whatever, you know, and if you don't walk normal, people jump on your broken legs. And then when you scream and shout, they use that against you. Do you know what I'm saying? You're constantly--it's like a fucking horrible video game.
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So, the media need to stop--I think one of the things, you know, I had an idea--and it sounds funny, but I'm not joking--of Coffee Mornings with Crazy People, right, that in your town, you would once a month or something in the park, everybody could go and meet people who have all the different mental illnesses and chat and get to know each other.
The trouble is because everyone is so--the reason everyone is so afraid of mental illness is the way the media has portrayed it, you know, as if we're scary and all that crap and dangerous, and--or invalid, you know. People don't engage with people who have mental health illnesses, and they don't understand the illnesses.
Like, the media constantly portray multiple personality disorder as if it's schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a completely different condition. Also, media constantly portray people with schizophrenia or whatever as, you know, monsters, you know, dangerous. Well, that's complete bollocks, nothing like it, you know.
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MR. EDGERS: Let me ask--could I ask you--I want to ask you about your performing because that's a very important thing.
MS. O'CONNOR: I think the media could do an awful lot if they encouraged people to engage people with mental illness and find out that they're perfectly valid people, you know.
But, like, the biggest--
MR. EDGERS: Let me ask you--
MS. O'CONNOR: One of the biggest problems, when you, again, are this person with two broken legs and everyone expects you to walk normal, you wouldn't believe the millions of people that are going to work every day doing whatever jobs they do, having to walk normal, you know, for fear they lose their job or their houses or mortgage, you know. So, we're constantly put under pressure not to show any symptoms, you know.
In fact, even I'll tell you something that my publisher will kill me for telling you, but I'm going to tell you. But before I started promo for this book, there was a request came in that I do a mock interview with the publicist of some sort so that, quote, they could see was I going to say anything whack or was I going to come across crazy, and that really upset me. In fact, I sobbed, crying for a whole weekend because that's asking someone with two broken legs to walk normal, you know.
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And then I sent them the James Brown interview on CNN after the fucking car chase. I was like, "Hey, you know, how come James Brown can act like a fucking lunatic on CNN and I can't, or somebody else can't go to work, you know, with their crutches and having to fucking walk normal?"
MR. EDGERS: Let me ask you. I thought when you talked about your retirement, one thing I thought of is so much of what you do and so much of who you are is defined by what you've written and been able to sing over the years, and one thing I thought was--one, was it cathartic at all to write this down as a book? This is, by the way, a beautiful book. I mean, it's like a--it's very poetic, and I love the fact that you wrote it. You didn't get some hack like me to help out. And two, I thought this is someone who doesn't just sing. She needs to sing. I've watched you perform, and I feel this intensity that comes from you that is--I don't know if it's healing or cathartic. We use that word too much, but tell me about how you deal with your life and struggles with music and with this book.
MS. O'CONNOR: Well, when I was writing the book, it wasn't a catharsis. I didn't have any feelings. As I explained earlier, I was completely disassociated. I was afraid. I didn't--so, yeah, I didn't--there was no catharsis writing it. I just wrote it, and I didn't get--it didn't trigger anything.
I was frightened to read the audio book because I thought it would be triggering, but it wasn't at all, except for, weirdly, the Prince chapter because I had not, in fact, engaged at the time with how fucking frightening that was, so I had to go to bad for a couple days after that one.
But the catharsis is now coming, thanks be to God--God works in mysterious ways. These journalists have been a bit insensitive in digging into--you know, retraumatized me. That has been the catharsis. It's all coming up now, all the stuff that I told you earlier that the therapists for years are saying, you know, "We'd like you to feel your bloody feelings, if you don't mind." Well, it's happening now. You know what I mean? And that's a good thing, you know, but it's not easy. Do you know what I mean? But it's a blessing, you know.
MR. EDGERS: So, when you talk about retiring, it feels like you need to sing. Am I right about that? I mean, it feels like something you can't just cut out of your life.
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah, exactly. It's a bit like having a row with your husband and you say, you know, "Fuck off" or, you know, two days later, you're like, "Oh, I'm sorry," you know. It's a bit like that, I guess.
Do I need to sing? That's a very good question. I think that what I like and why you see me get fiery when I'm on stage is that I feel strongly about the audience, that to most artists, it should be the case, and it is with me, that the audience is the most important person in my life artistically. I guess I love that, turning up and doing what I do, because I know that the people there are finding something encouraging and healing in it. Do you know what I'm saying? It's kind of like music as a priesthood, you know, like being really inspired Rastafari movement in that regard, you know, the idea of music as a priesthood, you know.
And I think people like Dylan are a priest, and Van, they don't know they are, maybe. Maybe they do. But when I go on stage, there's two prayers I say every night. First, I say, Jesus, don't let me make a fool of myself, or, God, don't let me make a fool of myself, and then the next is I want to be a priest. So, I want to--what I love is not so much that I need to sing. I need to be a priest, and that's how I go about it. Do you know what I'm saying?
MR. EDGERS: Yeah. And--
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. Priests are very, very, by necessity, extraordinarily flawed human beings. You don't have to be perfect. It's just that hopefully by you--if you look at Dylan or Van, not that I'm comparing myself to them, but there are certain artists that just by them, you know there's a God, you know?
MR. EDGERS: Yeah. We have--
Share this articleShareMS. O'CONNOR: And I think that happens.
MR. EDGERS: You know, I want to ask you about--you know, obviously, you see the clip of you tearing up the picture of the Pope a hundred times a day, right? I mean, it's just played over and over, and the reason is because it was a very significant pop cultural moment, and we all paid attention to it.
But now, as you know, people are reinterpreting it, and they're saying, "Boy, how did she know all that?" And I know there were--you explained beautifully that this wasn't just motivated by your knowledge of your childhood in Ireland.
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. Sorry. Go on.
MR. EDGERS: When you see the way people are talking about it now, because I know you see it on the internet, people are saying, "Hey, Sinéad was right. Why didn't we listen?" Do you say, "Oh, I feel like I'm finally"--they get it, or is there more to it?
MS. O'CONNOR: Well, it's never mattered really to me if anybody got it. I understood at the time why people didn't get it. The thing about America that's quite sweet amongst many things is that you guys think something hasn't happened unless it's happened in America. So, you didn't know for 10 years, after the Pope incident, you know, that this was going on.
I understood why people were so bloody horrified. They couldn't possibly contemplate the idea. I mean, it was shocking the idea that there could be priests that were abusers, and worse, the so-called same people covering it up, you know.
But to be fair now, I have to be honest. I didn't know much about it. I only saw a teeny tiny paragraph in some newspaper--I can't even remember where--about--it was at very embryonic stages, the whole church thing. It was about families who had made reports to the cops, but then when they had gone to the cops to follow it up, the cops had lost--you know, couldn't find the documents, the statements, and blah-blah. You know, they're being stalled. That's all I saw, but the book explains the rest of it, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Well, I mean, and the picture--it's remarkable, that photograph of the Pope was--when your mother died tragically in a car accident, you plucked that photograph off of her wall and squirrelled it away.
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah.
MR. EDGERS: I guess not knowing that moment was going to occur on "Saturday Night Live," I mean, why did you--what was your idea of what that photo would be at some point? Did you know?
MS. O'CONNOR: Well, you know, first, I have to say, you know, it was a great thing about live TV in those days, and I have a feeling because of me, they created the three-second delay between California and the other side of America with "Saturday Night Live." But it's great because punks like live TV--do you know what I mean? You can fucking do anything on live TV, and so that was part of it as well.
But I took the photo because the Pope--that guy came to Ireland when I was a child. He kissed the ground when he got off the plane as if the flight had been terrifying, and then he gets up and says, "Young people of Ireland, I love you." And, of course, nobody bloody loved us actually, and there was no love going on at all, and the Catholicism was crushing, you know, the very essence of life in people via sexuality, you know, their perverse ideas about sexuality that they tried to drill into people, especially in Ireland. It's almost like they've had an experiment here, you know.
People like my mother, God rest her soul--what am I trying to say? Catholicism was making people in Ireland either into monsters or being miserable. There was no love at all. It was a gray, dark, fucking theocracy and miserable place. So, yes, when he gets up and says, "Young people of Ireland, I love you," like fuck off. Like, what the fuck?
And also, why are you driving around in a, you know, protective vehicle? If you are good in your heart, why do you think anybody would want to shoot you? You know, think about it. Why would you want to get into such a vehicle unless you had something that you were afraid of, you know? Do you understand what I'm saying, you know? So, the falsity of the whole thing, you know, the crushing of Irish people by the church, in fact, you know, the football teams having to kneel down before matches and kiss the ring of the bishop, you know, the streets parting like the Red Seas when the bishop walked down the street, you know, people being told just the most awful lies about the devil and God.
My father was told at school several times by a priest when he was about seven years of age, my father. In the classroom, the priest says, "Once there was a boy who didn't go to confession, and what happened was he had--didn't he die in a fire, and didn't he go straight to hell," and what happened was the priest said that, "All my bed clothes burned and everything, and when they cleaned up the room, they found two little burned handprints on my bed clothes. The boy had come back from hell screaming to, you know, finally get a confession." This is the kind of shit they were drilling into people, bashing the kids at school, telling the parents it's like sex was a bad thing. From the moment you're born as a Catholic, you're a sinner because your parents made love to create you, the very essence of life, beautiful sexuality, and all life comes from it. They crushed that into people, and with wars and everything going on here, fucking, we never heard a word from the Pope. We had bloody four wars going on at the same time, and they're still going on, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Sinéad, I wish we could talk for hours, by the way, but they only allow me to talk to you for a half an hour. I want to show you something. I made this when I got--I saw you in March of 2020, before the pandemic struck. I thought we were going to see you back in the States on your tour, but I had this made by this amazing outsider artist, because this is a lyric, "Black Boys on Mopeds." I'll send you one, if you want. It's on a board. It's on a wooden board. It's like--
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. I don't look very pretty in it, obviously, but I don't look very pretty, anyway. But I look much worse in that. But I like it. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I actually love it. It's beautiful.
Oh, look, your typewriter. Remember I said I wanted it?
MR. EDGERS: I know.
MS. O'CONNOR: I tried to blackmail you into giving me a typewriter, but you've got exactly that one behind you is the one that I have wanted.
MR. EDGERS: You don't have to--no blackmail. I'll get you one.
But, look, that song, "Black Boys on Mopeds," you write that in the early '90s, late '80s, whatever it is, and this lyric is "These are dangerous days. To say what you feel is to make your own grave." I mean, these are incredibly--it's as if you're telling the future, or maybe it's just the way that life has always been when you watch things. Like, you have your Black Lives Matter shirt on. You say, again, "Why did these people in the United States not understand how messed up things were and how much we needed to fix them?"
MS. O'CONNOR: Because we're evolving. Things don't happen quickly. You know, if you say that we're made in the image of God and God is evolving and also, we're evolving along with it, we're all part of it. We're just growing. These things were probably under for years, and at least they're being talked about. They're being talked through, and people are getting to express their pain or their, you know, hope. Do you know, people are getting to talk about it, and look, people have been killing Black people for fucking centuries, you know. People have been putting them down, making them feel like a piece of shit, and, you know, it's always been there.
I get very sad when--it's actually beautiful, though, but when--the song that gets the most, you know, applause from the audience when I first start singing the lines is actually "Black Boys on Mopeds." It's more popular, and nothing compares, and that's gorgeous. But I always am thinking every night, "Oh, my God, isn't it sad that this is still so fucking relevant, you know, after 30 years?" That's sad. So, you know--but I guess people are, you know--I think it has a lot to do with religion.
If you look at it, like, people have not been taught to love each other. You never hear a politician say the word "love," you know. People haven't been taught. You know, it was dangerous in America back in the '60s when people bloody loved each other, and they were prepared to sit in the street and get killed if they have to, you know, but people have been made so busy trying to pay the rent and the mortgage and one check away from, you know, homeless and, you know, no time to think of others or the will to be willing to die for the sake of others, you know, and no spirituality. None of the religions were saying, you know, "Let's get and sit in the street and do a Gandhi on it and just sit there, and if they're going to kill us, okay. Kill us, but, you know, nonviolent with noncompliance."
If everybody in America got out in the streets for one day, the whole thing would bloody change because the powers that be would lose so much money on that one day, you know. Do you know what I'm saying? We don't love each other enough to sit in the street and die for each other, you know? And in America--
MR. EDGERS: You said in your book--
MS. O'CONNOR: America defined that very idea in the '60s of, you know, loving your neighbor.
MR. EDGERS: You know, we beautifully put it up early in this, the quote from your book, but I'll just read it again because I think it's an important point, because you're talking about how the moment on "Saturday Night Live" didn't ruin you. It saved you. It recovered you in some way, but you write, "Everyone wants a pop star. See? But I am protest singer. I just had to get stuff off my chest," and so I'd love to understand, as you look at it. Do you look back at that time period, that point where you were on the top of the pop charts, when, you know, look, this record--I got George Harrison holding it, but this thing was like the biggest album of all time when I was 19 years old, and I still listen to it often because it's beautifully written.
But do you look back at that time strangely and say, "Boy, what was I doing there on these award shows or on the pop charts?"
MS. O'CONNOR: It's like I was embarrassed. I feel like I was embarrassed, you know, and I don't know if that was impolite of me, perhaps, you know, but I just was uncomfortable with it. I don't know why. I guess because, you know, it's like oil and water, whatever they say. What is it? Oil and something don't mix. So, yeah, I guess, you know, the whole pop thing, it's a very vampiric arena, and it's almost as if--did you ever meet someone where for some reason, you just didn't get on with them, your energy didn't work together, it was something not right? It's a bit like that for me when I was in the pop thing. It just--I couldn't be whatever the hell it was I was supposed to be, you know?
And as I said in the book, nobody asked me what the fuck I wanted, you know. So, it derailed, perhaps, the dreams of a whole lot of record executives. Do you know what I mean? Mostly male, obviously. In fact, entirely male in those days. And they want to prostitute you, and I wasn't comfortable with being a prostitute or expected to be a prostitute, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Well, the way, I mean, that you write it--
MS. O'CONNOR: I'm still not comfortable with it.
MR. EDGERS: You write it beautifully in the book. I mean, the moment that the record executive tells this 19-year-old to wear some nice little short skirts and grow her hair out, you go to the barber and say, "Cut it all off," right?
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. Well, that was my manager at the time. He said to me, "I think you should fucking shave it." So, I had like a mohawk, anyway, so yeah. I like the chapter in the book about the shaving of the head because it's a very funny chapter, because the Greek barber, he was a young man himself, probably only a bit older than me like, and he was having to freak out about doing it. And so, the whole scenario was quite funny, and in fact, he--at the very end--but when he did it, it was like the "Nothing Compares to You" video. One little tear came down his face because he was so horrified doing it.
MR. EDGERS: You know, I'll tell you the one thing that I hope that people will understand from this book is that it's also like you. You have a great sense of humor. You have a great command of language and comedy language, I'd say. You have a way of giving us--even the Prince scenario where Prince--really, it's a horrifying and scary experience, but the way you tell it is with humor at times and with just--it's just beautifully written.
Sinéad, we only have a couple more--
MS. O'CONNOR: I actually think--for me, the Prince chapter is the best chapter in the book, I feel.
MR. EDGERS: Well, it's beautifully done.
We only have a couple more minutes. I want to ask you. You talk at the end of this book--and I know that we talked about it too--going to get your degree as a health care assistant and wanting to spend time with people who are dying, and you're talking about calling this new album that you're going to put out next year, "No Veteran Dies Alone."
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah.
MR. EDGERS: Explain that to people who don't--we're used to our heroes in arts sitting on an island and gazing out at the sunset or, you know, getting treated like royalty. Tell me about sitting in a room with a dying 92-year-old veteran on his oxygen and why--what that means to you, why you're doing that.
MS. O'CONNOR: Well, look, thanks be to God, none of my guys actually died. I had a little voluntary job in Waukegan, around Waukegan. There was a veteran hospital, and it was a program called "No Veteran Dies Alone," where there were soldiers of all kind of ages who for one reason or another, perhaps they had outlived their families, or for one reason or another, their family couldn't be there, whatever. The idea was you would make friends with them, and you'd kind of do the things they might like. You know, if they want a hot dog at 4:00 in the morning or whatever, and then the idea is that you are the person who sits with them while they make the transition. And it's beautiful what they do in the veteran hospital. There's a lovely salute and kind of trumpets, and everybody sounds when the man or woman is being prepared for that.
But I only had the job for maybe about three or four weeks. Luckily, God forgive me, I didn't, thank God, have to go through them actually dying, which I think would have hurt me because I loved the one man in particular that I was working with, and he was a Syrian man, Syrian American, and he was 92 and just I loved him so much that I think, thank God I wasn't there when he died because it would have broke my heart.
That's why if you're going to do that kind of work, you would need to clear your own griefs, you know, because you can't be falling apart. But the reason that I wanted to call the album "No Veteran Dies Alone" is to advertise the program, No Veteran Dies Alone. It's a voluntary program. It's run in the veteran hospitals all over America, and they're looking for people to come in and just befriend and be brave enough to do that, you know. It's a great program. The album title is a pure ad for the program, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Okay. Well, look, again, I would talk to you for three or four hours, and I hope we will talk again soon.
This is the book. It's a great book, folks. It really is. It's a wonderfully written book. I'm not going to give you my copy. I've taken some notes.
And I know you're going to be touring again soon, and you're going to be putting out a new album.
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah.
MR. EDGERS: Look, you're a great person and a great artist, and we really look forward to everything that you do.
MS. O'CONNOR: Thank you. And I really--I'm so--I'm overwhelmed how loving everybody is being about the book. I'm really, really--like I can't believe it. It's weird. The same is when the record--when, you know, the "glory days," as I call it, I kind of couldn't believe, like, why would people be interested. Do you know what I mean? There's been so much love about it. It's lovely, you know.
MR. EDGERS: Well, we so look forward to anything else we can hear from you, and I'll get you some records, okay?
MS. O'CONNOR: Okay, cool. Oh, yeah. We were going to ask people to--
MR. EDGERS: They will.
MS. O'CONNOR: --send records. I need some vinyls, guys, everybody out there. So, send them to Geoff, and I'll get them. If you send me a record, I'll be really happy because I just got a record player, and I've got hardly any records.
MR. EDGERS: This hasn't normally been how things are arranged with Washington Post Live guests, but, folks, my email is on the internet. Write me. Send me your records, and I'll send them to Sinéad, okay? Within reason. No trip off, okay?
MS. O'CONNOR: Yeah. I like blues and country. I don't like dance. I do like trance, but don't send me any fucking bullshit, you know. I like Rastafari.
MR. EDGERS: Okay, none of that. None of that f-ing bullshit. Okay.
Hey, folks, come back Wednesday at eleven o'clock on Washington Post Live. We have my colleague, Paige Winfield Cunningham, who will be talking about the global vaccine rollout, and, look, have a wonderful afternoon, and thanks so much for being here.
[End recorded session]
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